Why average temperature?
When Flair is controlling the set point, why does it use the average home temperature and average home set point to determine the smart thermostat set point? It would seem that this would result in most rooms never achieving their local set point goals.
Instead, why does it not at least have the option to use the lowest set point (for cooling mode) and the highest set point (for heating mode). In this way, rooms would simply close their vents when their set point was reached, and the system would stop heating/cooling when the highest/lowest temperature was achieved.
Something like this:
Current temperature 78 degrees, system set to cooling
Room A set to 75 degrees
Room B set to 70 degrees
Room C set to 65 degrees
Flair sets thermostat set point to 65 since Room C has the lowest set point
Cooling begins.
Room A closes its vents when it reaches 74 degrees
Cooling continues, Room B closes its vents at 69 degrees
Cooling continues, Room C reaches 65, Flair ends the call for cooling, system stops.
If this is not an option, how can I achieve something similar? If I set rooms A & B to inactive so that Room C can achieve its set point, Rooms A & B will remain at 78 degrees and never be cooled.
One last question: when Flair sets a smart thermostat to a temperature, does heating/cooling stop when the thermostat reaches that temperature or when the average temperature (as calculated by Flair) is achieved?
Thanks for your help!
-
Support just told me that FLAIR, just like Ecobee, uses averaged temperature of sensors, what, I could not believe it?
Why, I already use comfort zones and the averaging is a problem, in the summer some rooms are 68 and some are 74, average a nice 72, but nobody is happy, while the HVAC has satisfied. Adding vent control may reduce the large delta, but why not use room thresholds?
I assumed, yes never assume, that FLAIR would look at individual rooms for control, or at leas allow prioritization, something that had been asked from Ecobee for years.
I understand one method may not work for everybody, so then give us options please, average is no better than Ecobee.
-
Pieter Viljoen Are you trying to get very different temperatures across those rooms or are you trying to get them all to a consistent temperature?
The solution is different, depending on which you're trying to do.Do you already have a Flair system or are you just looking at how one may help? The statements about "already use comfort zones" and "Flair uses average" create a conflict. If you're using Ecobee comfort zones, then Ecobee must be in control and how Flair may use averages to turn the system on or off doesn't matter and never comes into play. With Ecobee in charge, each Flair room will limit on it's on to it's specific temp and Flair will never turn the system on or off. If you're using Flair to control the system, where the Flair average temp to determine when to turn the system on and off impacts things, then you're NOT using Ecobee comfort zones anymore. At that point, you've told Flair to take control and the Ecobee schedule is useless.
Configuring the system requires picking which control is the brains of the system. Flair can be the only brain, or both Flair and Ecobee can play a role for different control decisions. I see lots of posts where people try to make both Flair and Ecobee/Nest the brain for the same control decisions, and those setups never work right.
If you're trying to get all the rooms to a consistent temperature, you can try this. Use Ecobee as the brains with it's remote sensors and comfort settings and schedules. Set the schedule and comfort settings to only use the remote sensor in the room that arrives at temperature last. This will cause the Ecobee to run the system longer until that lagging room reaches temp. Ignoring all the other sensors, so there's no averages going on. With Flair vents in all the rooms that arrive at temperature early. Configure each room with it's temperature cutoff value when it's vents will close. This will only use that room, no averaging then. Once it closes, that should also send more air to the lagging room so it'll arrive faster now. In this configuration, Ecobee is the brains in charge of turning the source on and off. Only Ecobee through it's sensors and algorithm will determine when to run the system. Flair is only responsible for limiting a room, using it's individual temperature value to limit that room and stop it from continuing to change temperature. Which means a Flair room on it's own will never turn the system on and call for more.
If you want very different room temperatures, it's much harder.
-
My objective is the same temperature in each room, and yes I understand the limitations of vent control with individual heat/cool control.
Using the average temperature of all rooms is problematic as all rooms can end be being uncomfortable while the HVAC is satisfied, I think this is why many of us look at using FLAIR vs. $$$ for multi-zone.
What I, and from reeding the thread many others, want is to have control above and beyond average, e.g. prioritized rooms, setbacks, no hotter than, no colder than, etc. These same requests have been asked of Ecobee for a number of years, but unlike Ecobee, you can control both HVAC and vent.
As early adopters there is also the geek factor, I for one was surprised you do not have better control than averaging like Ecobee.
-
All the remote sensors from every company, and even the Flair vents themselves are a hack to deal with trying to make a single zone system act more like a multi zone system without actually having a multi zone system. As such, they all have different limitations.
I personally don't use Flair as the brains and set point controller. The smart thermostat is capable of that and already had the sensors. I didn't feel the need to make it a dumb order taker. This does mean I need to consider how the two will interact though. However, it also means I can leverage all the Ecobee smarts on when to run the source, how to move around the "most important" room, and which sensors to include in it's averaging, plus a high and low set point for auto mode and desired fan runtime for circulation.
I can understand why in "limit only mode", Flair is able to limit each room individually.
I can also understand why it "Set Point Controller" mode where Flair is the brains, it's using average to drive the system. Especially without having a high and low temp like the Ecobee does.
In that desired 72, one room is 68 and one room is 74, while the average doesn't run the system, what would individual control do?
If the system was in Heat Mode, the 68 could drive heat and the 74 would stay closed and stay over heated.
If the system was in Cold Mode, the 74 could drive cold, the 68 would stay closed and over cooled.
If the system was in auto mode, the 68 would turn the heat on, the 74 would turn the cooling on, and the heating source would malfunction as two fight. Perhaps, just as bad, the 68 would change the set point on the real thermostat to higher to trigger heat, and then the 74 would change the set point on the real thermostat to lower to trigger cooling. As the source system alternates between turning the heat and cooling on and off. If they added in high and low to deal with this and you set it to 68-74, it wouldn't run either and would end up with the same outcome.
Flair probably could solve for all those conditions better, or at least create more options to manage. But, it's never going to be perfect, and the Ecobee (or Nest) already does a bunch of those things itself. In some cases, two brains is better than one. In others, not so much. It might be nice if Flair could do it all. It would certainly be nicer for Flair users with a bunch of disconnected mini splits where Flair is making them look like one system.
-
If the system was in Heat Mode, the 68 could drive heat and the 74 would stay closed and stay over heated.
If the system was in Cold Mode, the 74 could drive cold, the 68 would stay closed and over cooled.
This seems completely fine and what I want the system to do, and what many expect it to do. If one room is too cold, turn on the furnace and direct the heat to that room. We're in heat mode so don't worry about the other room being over, not the systems problem. Granted being in heating+cooling mode would create a problem, so don't use that mode with that algorythm.
-
Update: Comfort+ is back on my system, and working amazing. Thanks team.
Contact flair support if you need this feature.
Also, here's a link to Dump to Active vs Dump to Inactive (also configurable if you talk with flair support):
Backpressure protection seriously over-cools my room – Flair -
Hi All,
We do have a number of beta settings that we can turn on for customers. We like to try the straightforward solutions first, then proceed with more complex solutions. In most cases we can get systems working with Set point Controller set to Flair and a schedule to tell Flair which rooms you want temperature prioritized (i.e. setting rooms to Inactive when you’re not actively using them removes them from the average).
There’s a lot of great discussion here on Set Point Controller and Vent operation.
Set Point Controller tells Flair “who” is in control of the thermostat - Flair or the thermostat.
Vent operation: airflow management
While ecobee, uses averaging of room sensor data to make decisions, it cannot move air. That’s the advantage of using Smart Vents.
Some of our users prefer to let Flair make thermostat decisions and set Set Point Controller to Flair. This is when we can use alternative algorithms, like Comfort+, which caters to the “outlier” room.
As mentioned in a previous post, if you’re using Set Point Controller Flair, you need to disable the ecobee schedule - and any other features that will adjust the ecobee, like Eco+.
Also, when Flair is controlling the set point, it switches between heating and cooling based on a 3F differential. So while Flair doesn’t explicitly use heat-to and cool-to set points, Flair Set Point Controller is definitely capable of auto changeover when Mode is set to Auto Heat/Cool.
Todd, can you please open a Support ticket? We can help.
All the best,
Finn
Flair Technical Support
Please sign in to leave a comment.
Comments
42 comments